Author Topic: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'  (Read 2219 times)

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Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« on: January 05, 2016, 03:35:13 PM »
ATF just released a new guide on who is properly a 'dealer' and who is not to coincide with the President's latest executive order.   In a nutshell, nothing seems (to me at least) to have really changed with respect to any of this. 

It's a pretty interesting read, especially the examples.  The definition of a 'dealer' is vague and nebulous on purpose.  The way things are written, any time they decide to drop the hammer, they will be able to ensnare quite a few people who are 'dealers' operating w/o a license. 

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
      

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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2016, 03:42:32 PM »
As best I can tell, (text has not been published in the federal register yet) the two executive orders that were signed today are:

1) Prohibiting felons and others who would be otherwise prohibited from owning firearms to bypass the law by registering their firearms with a trust or corporation.  It also forces anyone associated with a trust or corporation to complete a background check.

2) Prohibiting private entities from re-importing guns that the US previously sent to foreign allies. Currently, a law already requires U.S. government approval before these weapons can be re-imported.  The weapons sent to foreign countries will have to remain there.
      

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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 04:01:38 PM »
ATF just released a new guide on who is properly a 'dealer' and who is not to coincide with the President's latest executive order.   In a nutshell, nothing seems (to me at least) to have really changed with respect to any of this. 

It's a pretty interesting read, especially the examples.  The definition of a 'dealer' is vague and nebulous on purpose.  The way things are written, any time they decide to drop the hammer, they will be able to ensnare quite a few people who are 'dealers' operating w/o a license. 

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

Thanks RM  thumb1

"As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit."  rofl  Everything I make on the few C&R firearms I've sold goes back into my hobby...and then multiply that by 20  :)  My balance sheet for firearms and ammo could be displayed as a tall red bar chart with the zero line way at the top of the page  chuckles1

Neither this, nor the EO cause me any heartburn. Hopefully, the hoopla around this doesn't lead to another round of panic buying of firearms and ammo driving up prices that only return to a new higher normal after the panic.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/01/04/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our
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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 04:13:51 PM »
Like P32 on EO, I don't see where it is anything but a rehash of whats already there.
 the https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/01/04/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our

I figured I'd share an analysis from a local forum, this is from a local fella who is a member there, broke it down real nice.:

Just so you know, VCDL
The Virginia Citizens Defense League, is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians.


Before I begin my analysis, I’d like to point out that the number the President uses for deaths caused by the use (or misuse) of a firearm includes suicides (much more than half of the total) and lawful self-defense shootings by citizens and police. Should suicide and lawful self-defense be considered “gun violence?” No.


ANALYSIS

Much of the Executive Orders (EOs) really don’t change anything, but try to put a menacing or intimidating spin on them. Others simply double-down on existing enforcement (yawn), some are bad, and one VCDL likes. Here is what they really do (or don’t do).

1. A dealer who sells guns exclusively over the internet or at gun shows is still a dealer and needs to have a license and do background checks. This is a “yawn” as it is simply restating current law and how it has always been enforced. Net effect: zero.

2. There is no specific threshold on the number of guns sold, as to what makes you a dealer. That has always been true. The BATFE takes into consideration several factors in determining if you are just a person selling a few items from your private collection or if you are trying to earn a living, or part of a living, by buying and selling guns. Here Obama tries to scare gun owners by saying that someone had been found to be in the business of selling firearms “when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, WHEN OTHER FACTORS ALSO WERE PRESENT” (emphasis mine). Here he’s obviously found some obscure cases that must have had some unusual “other factors” that made it clear the person was actually selling guns for a living, even with a small number of sales. This EO is implying that BATFE might be looking harder at people who sell guns regularly to make sure they are not really “in the business.” Other than trying to scare people by also pointing out the penalties for being in the business without a license, I don’t see this as changing the status quo on private sales at all. Net effect: zero, but meant to intimidate people into not doing any private sales.

3. Requiring everyone in an NFA trust to have a background check. This will have ZERO effect on crime, as criminals are NOT setting up trusts to buy NFA items! No one has been killed with a lawfully owned machine gun since the 1970s, when a police officer murdered his wife with one. This is simply a waste of time - doing something just to do something. Net effect: all those who are part of an NFA trust must have a background check.

4. Push for states to include more mental health data. Virginia has been doing this for a long time, predating the Virginia Tech massacre. Net effect: no effect on gun owners generally and no effect for Virginia gun owners at all.

5. More NICS employees will be hired to make NICS checks quicker and available 24/7, which is fine with VCDL as it will make it faster to buy a gun through a dealer. Net effect: positive because of quicker gun purchases.

6. Centralize tracing bullets used in crime. Net effect: zero for gun owners.

7. Step up investigating those who are illegally selling guns over the internet. Net effect: zero for gun owners.

8. Clarify that dealers are to notify the police about the loss or theft of guns. Net effect: zero for gun owners and zero for gun dealers, who already do this anyhow.

9. Direct U.S. Attorney’s Office to renew domestic violence outreach efforts. This requires coordination with state and local police on domestic violence crime. BUT it also requires coordination with “community groups focused on domestic violence.” I do not trust giving such "community groups” special treatment by the government. Net effect: no real change for gun owners.

10. Get information from the Social Security Administration on mental health issues for the purpose of disqualifying some people from owning a gun. Net effect: this is DANGEROUS, as it can strip people of their right to own a gun WITHOUT DUE PROCESS. A very tiny minority of those with mental health issues are dangerous. Just because you let someone else balance your checkbook doesn’t mean you should not be able to own a gun, but that’s what Obama is doing. Obama is casting a huge net for the purpose of catching what actually boils down to a handful of people.

11. Change HIPAA laws to allow states to share “certain” information from a person’s health records. Net effect: this is DANGEROUS, as it can strip people of the right to own a gun WITHOUT DUE PROCESS. No cookie cutter, bureaucratically controlled, examination of a person’s medical records should be used to strip someone of any of their rights without DUE PROCESS!

12. Encourage the development of “smart guns.” If there is a market for “smart guns,” they will be developed with or without government help. Hint: if police, government agencies like the Secret Service, or the military don’t want smart guns, then they probably are not going to be successful. Net effect: none for gun owners, just government wasting more tax dollars on another boondoggle.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 05:22:08 PM by Greasemonkey »
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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 04:35:09 PM »
What about the face to face registration and within state shipping to non ffl?

And yeah... As noted above, its all that 'without due process' Star Chamber crap thats really bad.  Anyone can end up on a 'list'
      
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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 04:45:03 PM »
Quote
What about the face to face registration and within state shipping to non ffl?

How can they prove a FTF happened, they can't prevent drug sales 99.9% of the time. They would have to post an agent in every parking lot, along every dirt road, behind every 7-11. To be honest, if the seller requires an instate FFL transfer, ok fine, what is there to hide from, if your fully 100% legal, and you want it, whats the big deal. You pay your transfer just like you would if it were shipped from another state.

Quote
Anyone can end up on a 'list'

Even you.. but, you can't get around the HIPAA laws at the current time, and that opens a whole nother can of worms. I have to deal with this crap at work..

The HIPAA Privacy Rule establishes national standards to protect individuals’ medical records and other personal health information and applies to health plans, health care clearinghouses, and those health care providers that conduct certain health care transactions electronically.  The Rule requires appropriate safeguards to protect the privacy of personal health information, and sets limits and conditions on the uses and disclosures that may be made of such information without patient authorization. The Rule also gives patients rights over their health information, including rights to examine and obtain a copy of their health records, and to request corrections.
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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2016, 04:51:59 PM »
Quote
whats the big deal

Breaking the law!  Nobody here should be contemplating skirting the law no matter how wretched it is. 


Hippa eh, sounds like Barry could care less.  Read his EO.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 05:01:51 PM »
Quote
whats the big deal

Breaking the law!  Nobody here should be contemplating skirting the law no matter how wretched it is.

Whats the difference? You do a check buying a new rifle, or other firearm, you do a check when you ship one in, how is a FTF with an instate transfer included breaking any law.
And if your not in the business or a wanna be business, your not breaking any laws.

No where in there did it say a FTF is flat out illegal or required a check.  It's more meant to intimidate people into not doing any private sales and pointing out the penalties for being in the business without a license


Quote
Hippa eh, sounds like Barry could care less.  Read his EO.

I'm not saying he cant skirt around it, but he's opening up a can of worms by violating it.
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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2016, 05:08:18 PM »
Hm kay...

All I'm asking is if there is anything in this over reach that says f/f have to now be registered or background checked.  If so, this includes most gunshow transactions. 

If its now going to be illegal to do so without the background check... Your breaking the law.

Its a simple question.  Not a debate.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2016, 05:15:54 PM »
Hm kay...

All I'm asking is if there is anything in this over reach that says f/f have to now be registered or background checked.  If so, this includes most gunshow transactions. 

If its now going to be illegal to do so without the background check... Your breaking the law.

Its a simple question.  Not a debate.

Where does it say a private sale is illegal?  THIS:
Quote
Clarify that it doesn’t matter where you conduct your business—from a store, at gun shows, or over the Internet: If you’re in the business of selling firearms, you must get a license and conduct background checks.
A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. For example, a person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions at gun shows or through the Internet. Those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the Internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick-and-mortar store.

Are you in a business?  NO, it's the same sh*t as a C&R license.. NOT FOR BUSINESS USE....I.E. MAKING MONEY, A LIVING, SOLE SOURCE OF INCOME

It's aimed at flippers and straw purchases
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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2016, 05:31:11 PM »
Hmm..   Didn't say it did say that.   Again, conflicting reports all over the place. 

Im not arguing with you.   Take a pill
      
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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2016, 05:37:15 PM »
'No, it does not appear to change the normal f/f transaction unless your flipping for profit'

There.... Was that so difficult?
      
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Re: Jan, 2016 executive order on the classification of 'dealers'
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2016, 05:40:50 PM »
Quote
Didn't say it did say that.
nea1 nea1   
Quote
Again, conflicting reports all over the place. 
When in doubt, go to the source  thumb1

Quote
Take a pill
  Hippa violation  rofl2 rofl2

'No, it does not appear to change the normal f/f transaction unless your flipping for profit'

There.... Was that so difficult?
dash2 dash2 dash2
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