Author Topic: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"  (Read 7351 times)

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Offline Bunker

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WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« on: October 22, 2015, 04:49:16 AM »
This section has been kinda dormant for a while, so I thought I’d post one of my military shotguns for those interested in WWII shotguns. I have a few but this is my favorite and I've owned it for more than a few decades. This shotgun is a WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun". The design was patented by Browning but Remington was the only manufacture that made these for the US military during WWII. This one was produced in 1943 and has all the correct factory acceptance markings and military inspector stamps/proofs.

I’m quite certain this shotgun wasn’t used in combat. Although a WWII weapon the Model 11 “Riot Guns” were mostly used as Stateside guard weapons and not deployed in combat, so a lot of these show minimal wear and some were never used at all. Also, notice this riot gun doesn’t exhibit the typical features of a combat shotgun (e.g., provisions for bayonet, vented handguard, etc). The longer barreled Model 11s (26” and 30”) were often reconfigured and used for training aerial gunners. Also, some long barreled Model 11s resided in military gun clubs and were used for recreational shooting.




































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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2015, 05:29:03 AM »
Holy cow!  :o That is the cleanest prettiest military shotgun I've ever seen!  thumb1

What is the barrel length on this version? 4 shell magazine?

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2015, 06:21:23 AM »
Cool  thumb1 an Auto 5, American style, and to think, Winchester kicked Brownings design it to the curb. Wonder if they still regret that decision after all these years. rofl

I'd love to get a shorter barrel one day for mine. :)
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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2015, 09:29:00 AM »
Wow!    What a nice one!!


Man, I would love to have even a crappy condition one of these...
      
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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2015, 10:26:30 AM »
Very nice. That is a super clean sg. What is the choke on it?

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2015, 12:39:32 PM »
Man  :o Pretty barely covers it...I'd take that out for dinner. Congrats.

I've keep an eye out for 1 of these ever since I picked up a 1912-13 Model 11 long barrel. These have got a great story/history behind 'em. The fact the barrel recoils back into the action is just downright cool ( although it puts it into the "mule kicker" category)
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Offline Bunker

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 08:32:08 PM »
Holy cow!  :o That is the cleanest prettiest military shotgun I've ever seen!  thumb1

What is the barrel length on this version? 4 shell magazine?
It has a 20" barrel, with an overall length of 39.5″ and it weighs 7 lbs. 10 oz. Yes, the magazine capacity is 4 + 1.

Offline Bunker

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2015, 08:57:28 PM »
Very nice. That is a super clean sg. What is the choke on it?

Marcus
Cylinder bore which is identified by the "CYl" designation on the left side of the barrel, along with a two or three letter date code.  In this case "MM", which is the date code for 1943.  Some WWII M11s were outfitted with a Cutts Compensator which will not have any choke identification marking.  Sometimes you'll see a M11 with a compensator that also has a choke identification marking on the barrel, which is a clear sign of a non-military (commercial), post-war modification.  BTW I really like the M11s with the comp.

Markings Reference:


Cutts Compensator Reference:

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2015, 09:01:04 PM »
Cutts by Lyman eh...
      
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Offline Bunker

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2015, 09:06:26 PM »
Just a few historical notes for anyone interested: During WWII (1941-1945) there was a total of 59,961 Remington Model 11s produced for the US military, of which 2305 were sold to the Navy Department in 1942.

Here are a few of the long barreled trainers used for aerial gunnery training and skeet practice.

Press photo illustrating the application of the Model 11 in the turret trainer role. The caption reads: "Capt. Ammon McClellan shows a 9th Air Force gunner how to operate a mobile ball turret with which the new Havoc A-20 light bomber is equipped. This practice turret--set up on a skeet range in England where the 9th is based--mounts shotguns instead of the A-20's .50 combat guns which fire all around the clock."


This photo illustrates the utility of the shotgun in aerial gunnery training. Gunnery students at Laredo Army Air Field using a truck mounted version of the AN-M2 flexible mount with a shotgun in the bed of a Dodge. I don’t think this is a M11 but M11s and other shotguns were used for this purpose.


Skeet tower at Foster Field, Texas in the summer 1942.


A scarce Remington Model 11 shotgun with Cutts Compensator still in its cradle.  This one was auctioned several years ago starting at $12K…not sure what it eventually sold for.


Miscellaneous photo of another Remington Model 11 still in its mount.

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2015, 09:35:40 PM »
My father has this one.... Made in 1940.  Any idea what the story on this one is?  US property marked on barrel and receiver.











      
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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2015, 09:54:49 PM »
When researching my Model 11, I read about the trainers but these are the 1st pics I've seen. These are just great! Thanks for posting them up Bunker.  thumb1

Very nice LC, That's the 1st 1 I've seen with a single duck on 1 side and a pheasant on the other...I've seen the single duck and the triple duck but don't recall 1 with anything on the other side. Maybe a civilian model used by the military? Neat for sure.  thumb1
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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2015, 10:12:55 PM »
Seller told him it was a trainer for following aircraft etc.... Dunno.   Maybe Bunker has some insight..
      
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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2015, 11:56:57 PM »
Goes along with what I've read on training with skeet shooting, to get used to moving aerial targets.
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Offline Carl in CT

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2015, 08:14:33 AM »
Wow, those are some sexy WW11 shotties! I hope I get to see one in person one of these days.
It's sad that the motto of young Americans isn't "live free or die" or "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country" or even "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Instead their motto is "pee yourself, shelter in place and cry for help". Pathetic.

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2015, 08:26:18 AM »
Seller told him it was a trainer for following aircraft etc.... Dunno.   Maybe Bunker has some insight..
Nice Model 11! Just have a few comments.

Your Father’s shotgun was not produced in 1940.  Shotguns in 1940 will be approximately in the 423346-439171 range, give or take a few. Your Father’s (SN 473620) was most likely produced in January 1943, with a very slim chance of being produced in late December 1942.  I can tell for sure if you would like but I will need two things. First, does the barrel lug serial number (next to the assembly ring) match the receiver serial number and second, what is the two or three digit barrel code (located on the rear left-side barrel forward of the breech).  I do see the “IMP CYL” (Improved Cylinder) marking on the left side of the barrel, which is the correct marking for original long barrels but the pic doesn’t show the barrel code.  If you’re going to tear it down you may want to also check to see if the other serialized parts match (tang, trigger assembly, inside the stock). Lastly, what inspector number or letter is stamped on the upper left-side trigger guard?
 
Serialized parts all matched when they left the factory but the two or three digit barrel code will often predate the shotgun production date and not coincide with the production date.  It is believed that the barrels were produced, coded and put into bins to be assembled later as a complete firearm, at which time the parts would be serialized and then final assembly and finishing would take place.  So when that assembly step took place, the serial number would then be added to the lug.  However, the barrel code should at least be in the ballpark (same month or within a month or so) and never coded later than the shotgun production date, unless the barrel was replaced somewhere down the road.  It’s fairly common to see non-matching barrels since they often needed to be replaced and were used interchangeably.  Serial numbers between ~469364 – 499999 were not included in the factory ledger, so it’s not just a simple look up for your shotgun.  Even Tipton’s 2000 article proved to be inaccurate.  I have 100s of M11 examples archived and here are a few that straddle each side of your serial number. The 474856 example is NIB, although I have other January 1943 examples in the 4741xx range, this one has the best pics. Both have matching barrels.  January 1943 barrel codes will either be “BM”, “MM” or “BMM", all would be correct, and December 1942 will only be “XL”. 

Serial Number 471521 Long Barrel, December 1942 Production:






Serial Number 474856 Riot, January 1943 Production:








Regarding the engraved game scene on the receiver.  In 1937, Remington reduced the roll-stamping to one bird on each side of the receiver and also begin stamping “MODEL 11” on the bolts.  This was also applicable to the Sportsman model.  Also, in the same year (1937), Remington stopped the separate serial number sequence (The Sportsman, Model 11).  WWII M11s used some form of bluing and I’ve seen a few different kinds of bluing used.

The left side buttstock appears to be missing the Ordnance Department Crossed Cannons cartouche and the “FJA” (Frank J. Atwood) inspector marking.

Reference Photo:

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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2015, 09:38:35 AM »
Thanks bunker!

I dont know where the 1940 date came from.... But I'll see if I can at least get the barrel code info if not pics.  Not sure if he wants to take it all appart or not. 

Where these 'long barrels' specifically use in this manor, or were they also 'guard guns'?
      
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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2015, 09:50:59 AM »
nice, thanks for sharing.  thumb1
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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2015, 10:13:47 AM »
He says the barrel code is BL... I guessing the barrel # dont match and its from a later gun?   I'll try to find out what the barrel serial # is.
      
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Re: WWII Remington Model 11 "Military Riot Gun"
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2015, 10:21:39 AM »
Looks like the date code makes it a Jan 1942
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.