Author Topic: 90 degrees of Bubba  (Read 7950 times)

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Online Justin Hell

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2017, 04:13:59 AM »
I read about the magazine stud here: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17575

It is a pretty interesting thread.

The 23 thing is interesting, and it does seem to be a PITA to do...the why is confusing too...it isn't like you would think anything but the whole mag would be replaced...perhaps they weren't sure about what would be a refurbable portion at that point yet. Maybe there was a little more personal fitting going on in the beginning. It seems unlikely that it was done at refurb, if anything...it may have been done pre-assembly for some reason.  If it is a coincidence, it is kind of over the moon. I really would like to see if anyone else can see it perhaps under the paint...I really wasn't looking for numbers there...and the paint was on thick. There still was plenty of scrubbing after I discovered the numbers...I didn't see the follower mark until a considerable time scrubbing away at the body. Unless someone has gone to the trouble of doing what I have done, it is doubtful anyone has noticed. I suspect the early mags like this that escaped the paint are few and far between. It may be visible to someone not already halfway done scraping it clean though...it is in probably the filthiest spot on even the cleanest gun. It's like a very deep naval in there.

 Whatever gun this came from must have been a beauty, the mag is seriously as new as new can be underneath the paint. It didn't exhibit any of the metal treatment I saw on other parts during stripping...it may have been stamped and painted in the white. All the other refurbed parts had kind of a dull park like finish to the metal, I assume some kind of etching process for roughing up the metal for better adhesion. It is pretty thin and steel wool makes quick removal of it....unless you do a chemical plating reaction with the acid and a brass brush...which turns it golden.

I think that might be the mystery of the golden bayonet, (also discussed in that link) if during the finishing process they used an acid along with brass brushes, this effect could be caused by something as simple as that....perhaps usually they used steel brushes, and substituted out brass...ran a run of bayonets through it, some even getting final polishing before the error is noticed.  This metal prep process used before painting could be also a same/similar process before chroming the bayonets...later matte bayonets might have just had the chroming process skipped....

All speculation that came about from doing all of this by hand, and never quite duplicating the process...I did eliminate the part where each part turned gold, by either using paint stripper exclusively with the brass...no goldening, with acid and steel, no goldening....acid and brass, it looked like I electroplated it with iron pyrite if that is even possible.  I had thought that perhaps first came the grey layer, and then the golden...but by eliminating brass, I think I put that to rest.  The bayonets might just have been experimental and that was why so many small variants exist. I don't believe the soaked in cosmoline theory at all. This one seems more likely. Whether it was on purpose or just an anomally remains to be determined.

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2017, 09:09:05 AM »
I read about the magazine stud here: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17575

I don't believe the soaked in cosmoline theory at all. This one seems more likely. Whether it was on purpose or just an anomally remains to be determined.

Do you mean the gap under the rear lug vs no gap in section k?  It's certainly a good page, he has a few errors in there and his dates for features are sometimes off by a year or even two, but all-in-all quite good.

I think the dried cosmo hypothesis is pretty much dead in the water at this point.  M08 had a very good writeup running some testing on a golden bayo.  The coating is an intended plated finish and is likely a chromate coating or some type of zinc plating.  Need to get one on a mass spec and find out exactly what it is.

I'd be surprised if it was a simple acid reaction, chromed bayos seem to be the norm and I just don't see acid etching a hard chrome surface like that. Perhaps the gold bayos aren't hard chromed?  Maybe P32 will chime in and let us know what he thinks?  thumb1
      

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2017, 10:47:16 AM »
I always assumed the golden bayonets were
1, a bare fresh new bayonet was treated somehow and became a browny goldy color.
2, a silver bayonet was treated somehow and came out a wishy washy, varying color because it didnt react the same to the coating underneath.

But the variation in color might be how hard the guy on the roughing up wheel pushed in certain areas?

The second is the only one i have seen in a store and i think thats how the cosmoline stain idea came about. Because it looks like a regular matte silver one is hiding underneath.
Like the photos in c and d.
 dntknw1
I like the idea and now i need super high res photos of every semi golden bayonet to figure this out.

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2017, 02:49:33 PM »
Quote
On to the bayonet. My research has been sending my head in circles...and I read almost everything in a Russian accent now. It kind of reminds me of that Clint Eastwood movie Firefox where he flies the stolen Russian jet with his mind and has to think in Russian. Only without the 80's movie soundtrack and a lot more cussing....at least I 'think' its cussing. Basically, every sound you make while clearing one's throat of a particularly thick hocker...that happens sometimes. It has to be mental profanity.

I have now seen enough of the 49 spike to know originals are not reworked M44 bayonets, but I am 99% sure they simply adjusted the tooling to work and they were born of the same idea....and quite likely the same equipment. I am having a hard time with the translations from Russian message boards but it seems as if they have either narrowed down either the SKS or the M44 spike as actually being of Polish origin. It is kind of funny...they seem to have similar heated discussions about this same topic there. What is cute is how much they seem to covet the Chinese spike...and how expensive they are to obtain there. There are folks there comparing the M44 to the Chinese, and to the actual Russian SKS spike...and it seems that folk over there are converting the M44s over for use on SKSs too...again, it is hard to be sure through the translation...but that was what I am getting from it. From what I have seen, it seems the whole spike is slightly lightened compared to an M44...maybe 95% of one in mass. There also sounded like a guy stating that in the past at 'gatherings' (gun shows?) there would be buckets of the SKS spikes....sigh. I have seen enough of them cut to within the last thread of being able to withstand their own weight without bending that I would gladly accept one of those to complete this....with a spike.

Interesting... but.. on the Polish theory. The Polish M44 went into production somewhere between '50-'51 depending on who says it and where you look. After the Russian SKS spike, even possibly after the Russian spike to blade transition.
Excerpt from Terence Lapin, author of The Mosin Nagant Rifle, again, just his theory.
Quote
It is assumed the Poles manufactured these carbines on Soviet machinery that was relocated into Poland. One reason for this assumption is that Soviet M44 production ceased in 1948 and the machines used to manufacture these carbines was no longer needed. The theory is that the Soviets took a year, 1949, to relocate the tooling and the Poles to undertake production.
 

The M44 production ended in 1948 in Russia, which corresponds with the above theory. The tweaking and adjusting of current Russian equipment I can see as plausible. And it does open the door for did "all" the equipment go to Poland, or was it split and some went to China, Hungary and Romania.
Quote
The Chinese looked to their new friends to the North, the Soviet Union, for assistance in the matter. As the doctrine of the "Human Wave" was shared by both nations, a bayonet would be an essential item on any carbine to be issued. The Soviet Union of course offered the Model 1944 Carbine as a logical solution . The Soviets were in production of the SKS at the time, but they did not want to share this new development with the Chinese. It is thought that Soviet machinery was sent to China for commencement of Type 53 production. The facts also seem to suggest this was also done in Eastern Europe as the Model 1944 Carbine production also began in Poland, Hungary, and Romania during the same time frame. The movement of the Soviet machinery allowed the Chinese to produce the Type 53 independently, which was important to both Chinese national pride and the self-sufficiency of China. This also allowed the Soviets to aid their Chinese ally without giving away a large amount of weapons technology.

On the flip side, it''s not difficult to remove the SKS spike, melt the steel and re-forge a blade, especially in factories with full metal working/production capabilities, they also made tractors and all kinds of other crap. Also, it's not far fetched to think they had spikes left from M44 production, that just so happened to end in '48, which is when the SKS "supposedly" went into full production, simply re-machine them and adapt it for use on the SKS.  Just my .00002 worth :)

Or  :o is there some really juicy tidbits of info floating around on "insert nation here" M44 that makes all the above out dated and null and void.. think1 :)
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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2017, 03:01:08 PM »
Here are pics of the two digit tagging on the follower and mag body...along with a pic of the original serial....the fonts match, I think they are even the same size. 



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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2017, 03:35:49 PM »
Quote
On to the bayonet. My research has been sending my head in circles...and I read almost everything in a Russian accent now. It kind of reminds me of that Clint Eastwood movie Firefox where he flies the stolen Russian jet with his mind and has to think in Russian. Only without the 80's movie soundtrack and a lot more cussing....at least I 'think' its cussing. Basically, every sound you make while clearing one's throat of a particularly thick hocker...that happens sometimes. It has to be mental profanity.

I have now seen enough of the 49 spike to know originals are not reworked M44 bayonets, but I am 99% sure they simply adjusted the tooling to work and they were born of the same idea....and quite likely the same equipment. I am having a hard time with the translations from Russian message boards but it seems as if they have either narrowed down either the SKS or the M44 spike as actually being of Polish origin. It is kind of funny...they seem to have similar heated discussions about this same topic there. What is cute is how much they seem to covet the Chinese spike...and how expensive they are to obtain there. There are folks there comparing the M44 to the Chinese, and to the actual Russian SKS spike...and it seems that folk over there are converting the M44s over for use on SKSs too...again, it is hard to be sure through the translation...but that was what I am getting from it. From what I have seen, it seems the whole spike is slightly lightened compared to an M44...maybe 95% of one in mass. There also sounded like a guy stating that in the past at 'gatherings' (gun shows?) there would be buckets of the SKS spikes....sigh. I have seen enough of them cut to within the last thread of being able to withstand their own weight without bending that I would gladly accept one of those to complete this....with a spike.

Interesting... but.. on the Polish theory. The Polish M44 went into production somewhere between '50-'51 depending on who says it and where you look. After the Russian SKS spike, even possibly after the Russian spike to blade transition.
Excerpt from Terence Lapin, author of The Mosin Nagant Rifle, again, just his theory.
Quote
It is assumed the Poles manufactured these carbines on Soviet machinery that was relocated into Poland. One reason for this assumption is that Soviet M44 production ceased in 1948 and the machines used to manufacture these carbines was no longer needed. The theory is that the Soviets took a year, 1949, to relocate the tooling and the Poles to undertake production.
 

The M44 production ended in 1948 in Russia, which corresponds with the above theory. The tweaking and adjusting of current Russian equipment I can see as plausible. And it does open the door for did "all" the equipment go to Poland, or was it split and some went to China, Hungary and Romania.
Quote
The Chinese looked to their new friends to the North, the Soviet Union, for assistance in the matter. As the doctrine of the "Human Wave" was shared by both nations, a bayonet would be an essential item on any carbine to be issued. The Soviet Union of course offered the Model 1944 Carbine as a logical solution . The Soviets were in production of the SKS at the time, but they did not want to share this new development with the Chinese. It is thought that Soviet machinery was sent to China for commencement of Type 53 production. The facts also seem to suggest this was also done in Eastern Europe as the Model 1944 Carbine production also began in Poland, Hungary, and Romania during the same time frame. The movement of the Soviet machinery allowed the Chinese to produce the Type 53 independently, which was important to both Chinese national pride and the self-sufficiency of China. This also allowed the Soviets to aid their Chinese ally without giving away a large amount of weapons technology.

On the flip side, it''s not difficult to remove the SKS spike, melt the steel and re-forge a blade, especially in factories with full metal working/production capabilities, they also made tractors and all kinds of other crap. Also, it's not far fetched to think they had spikes left from M44 production, that just so happened to end in '48, which is when the SKS "supposedly" went into full production, simply re-machine them and adapt it for use on the SKS.  Just my .00002 worth :)

Or  :o is there some really juicy tidbits of info floating around on "insert nation here" M44 that makes all the above out dated and null and void.. think1 :)

It is entirely possible that the translation bungled the intent of the author perhaps saying the M44 bayo he was using was from a Polish M44 or maybe they collectively discovered that his bayonet was Polish...  Their sentence structure and general mindset in communication is so different it really gets hard to determine for sure the intent. I am sure that internet speak comes into play and that really throws a wrench in the works of the translators.

It is interesting learning more about the history of the short pants Mosin. What I get from that last quote is that China indeed got equipment from Russia....but not necessarily for the other countries?  I can just imagine the guys showing up for work, arriving at their station only to see the equipment missing.  Maybe the golden and polished black ones were just shakedown errors from training disasters.  chuckles1
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Offline newchi

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2017, 04:02:52 PM »
Quote
Their sentence structure and general mindset in communication is so different it really gets hard to determine for sure the intent.

Word to that, ive been trying to learn russian for a few months and good god is it funky.

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2017, 04:19:21 PM »
I read about the magazine stud here: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17575

I don't believe the soaked in cosmoline theory at all. This one seems more likely. Whether it was on purpose or just an anomally remains to be determined.

Do you mean the gap under the rear lug vs no gap in section k?  It's certainly a good page, he has a few errors in there and his dates for features are sometimes off by a year or even two, but all-in-all quite good.

I think the dried cosmo hypothesis is pretty much dead in the water at this point.  M08 had a very good writeup running some testing on a golden bayo.  The coating is an intended plated finish and is likely a chromate coating or some type of zinc plating.  Need to get one on a mass spec and find out exactly what it is.

I'd be surprised if it was a simple acid reaction, chromed bayos seem to be the norm and I just don't see acid etching a hard chrome surface like that. Perhaps the gold bayos aren't hard chromed?  Maybe P32 will chime in and let us know what he thinks?  thumb1

I haven't actually seen one...but I assume they mean the stud riveted under the floor plate to retain the spring. I was guessing that it was just free floating in there, perhaps held in just by the cup on the follower and pressure.  If it was flawed, it might have not lasted long. The HM1949 example shows the rivet there...  This was just one thing I picked up on to keep an eye out for. It is something probably everyone would overlook...or was perhaps taken out of service at refurb so perhaps they are limited to as issued 49s, that multitude of those out there. :)  I am going to keep an eye out now to see if I can spot one.   I am curious if there was some other method of retaining them on the follower...it seems like a no brainer that eventually it would jiggle out without some kind of way to hold it in place.  The only mention of it on the page is in Section 8 part 11. These might be insidiously obscure.

Regarding the plating, whatever caused mine to turn gold was likely what I was doing...but perhaps I was thinking the dark layer under the paint was yet another layer...but was the same coating, just with it's reaction to the paint. The goldening may have not occured until all of the paint was out.  It was something I wouldn't notice as it happened...only in the better lit area where I rinsed them off....by the time I could see the paint was gone...I had transferred the acid etched brass to the surface of the coating....later removed by steel wool.

Another interesting thing is that the metal used for the covers seems completely different than used anywhere else. It appears to have had the same treatment done to it before painting...but it is much darker and grainy...like cast iron but lighter in color. When reblued with other parts of the same gun...it took half as much for more result. The rest of it doesn't seem to be able to darken as much as it did. It may just be the texture sucking up the highlights...it is pretty close in bright uniform light. It was the first part of the 50 I got in, and the first I worked on...I was really concerned about that...as it was much harder to strip. Fortunately, the trigger group was scrubbed, reserialed, reblued, and later painted with the bluing intact, I had to strip the bluing to get it to match, but at least they didn't get too crazy with the paint on the internals of it...I returned the favor....only pulling the hammer, sear and mag release. The gas tube I want to say was new to the gun and added and penciled at a refurb...likely it's most recent. The coating was much less apparent, and I don't recall fighting with any residual bluing underneath it.
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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2017, 04:27:43 PM »
Quote
Their sentence structure and general mindset in communication is so different it really gets hard to determine for sure the intent.

Word to that, ive been trying to learn russian for a few months and good god is it funky.

I was on an unrelated chat board and a guy tried to explain how Russian language is somewhat in an altered tense for general speaking than most languages. Whereas one language tends to refer everything based on a potential future vs. based on a set past...or something like that.  Trying to imagine it hurts. I have Rosetta Stone...I just haven't bit the bullet and gotten started on it. I was on the fence on Chinese or Russian to try first...Russian seems more interesting...and certainly easier to read.  The wife works with who she refers to as a cute Russian coed...maybe that might inspire me.....lessons. :)
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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2017, 05:30:12 PM »
I haven't actually seen one...but I assume they mean the stud riveted under the floor plate to retain the spring. I was guessing that it was just free floating in there, perhaps held in just by the cup on the follower and pressure.  If it was flawed, it might have not lasted long. The HM1949 example shows the rivet there... 

Is this the photo of HM1949 you're thinking of?


I thought I found one w/o the rivet MB28:


but then you get a different angle in a different light and it sure looks like a rivet that's been ground to within an inch of its life maybe...or maybe it's just an optical illusion:


pcke's OП1667 might be the best candidate, but I honestly can't tell from this photo:



Barring those last two being possibilities, I can't find a concrete example w/o that rivet, heck even this Chinese 24 mil /26\ has it, it obviously worked well:


It's interesting that http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17575 says there are only two versions of the magazine:
Quote
11.Magazine ( 2) fixed 10 rounds. early 1949 without stud for mag spring, late 1949 to 1956 with stud.

Yet he totally leaves out the '49-'52 locking lug gap and the '53-'58 non gapped versions even though he calls them out earlier in the thread. 


I suspect there should be 3 magazine versions if the stud/non stud is truly a '49 feature (though since no photos have turned up of one, you gotta wonder....)

Good stuff Justin, way to keep working things.  thumb1
      

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2017, 05:38:09 PM »
Regarding the plating, whatever caused mine to turn gold was likely what I was doing...but perhaps I was thinking the dark layer under the paint was yet another layer...but was the same coating, just with it's reaction to the paint. The goldening may have not occured until all of the paint was out.  It was something I wouldn't notice as it happened...only in the better lit area where I rinsed them off....by the time I could see the paint was gone...I had transferred the acid etched brass to the surface of the coating....later removed by steel wool.

Chromate conversion coating (aka "alodine") is commonly used for paint prep nowadays; very nice surface for good paint adhesion.  Can be dipped, immersed, brushed on, etc.  Might be what you saw underneath the paint.
      

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2017, 06:26:48 PM »
I haven't actually seen one...but I assume they mean the stud riveted under the floor plate to retain the spring. I was guessing that it was just free floating in there, perhaps held in just by the cup on the follower and pressure.  If it was flawed, it might have not lasted long. The HM1949 example shows the rivet there... 

Is this the photo of HM1949 you're thinking of?


I thought I found one w/o the rivet MB28:


but then you get a different angle in a different light and it sure looks like a rivet that's been ground to within an inch of its life maybe...or maybe it's just an optical illusion:


pcke's OП1667 might be the best candidate, but I honestly can't tell from this photo:



Barring those last two being possibilities, I can't find a concrete example w/o that rivet, heck even this Chinese 24 mil /26\ has it, it obviously worked well:


It's interesting that http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17575 says there are only two versions of the magazine:
Quote
11.Magazine ( 2) fixed 10 rounds. early 1949 without stud for mag spring, late 1949 to 1956 with stud.

Yet he totally leaves out the '49-'52 locking lug gap and the '53-'58 non gapped versions even though he calls them out earlier in the thread. 


I suspect there should be 3 magazine versions if the stud/non stud is truly a '49 feature (though since no photos have turned up of one, you gotta wonder....)

Good stuff Justin, way to keep working things.  thumb1

Same gun, different photo...referring to HM1949.
I am actually surprised, as I used that comparison photo to send to my 'guy' to see if he had any of the gapped mags...I just noticed that photo isn't even close to what I got. I wonder if the one with only the hole under the lug rather than the gap is the non lug one? 

 I think those other photos you posted are what we are looking for. This tidbit didn't sink in for me until a couple days ago, I must have skimmed over it...and I just wasn't looking for it.  I think the lug is a cylinder with a built in pin that gets peened over...if it was sanded down, it would fall out and leave a pin hole like the 5 round pin left behind.  I could be wrong, I made no attempt to remove it on any mag I have worked on.  I can only imagine how much fun it would be to try assemble one without the lug...keeping all those holes lined up for a single pin with unseated spring tension seems like it would have been much harder to pull off on the one mag I have fully disassembled.

This has been a fun experience. I feel as if I have learned about as much about Russians in the last six or so weeks than I had about Chinese in the the 20ish years of owning them, and the last six or seven years of intense scrutiny.  Gotta love reverse engineering...but I am the kind of guy who would rip a Blu Ray to 36550 floppy disks if you gave me the software and the disks.  :)
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Offline pcke2000

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2017, 10:36:37 PM »
Justin, thank you very much. Magazine rivet is definitely another detail I had never paid attention to until I saw your post.

BTW, it looks like my 1949 does not have the rivet.

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2017, 11:02:35 PM »
RM, please check pictures of (1) 1948 SKS s/n 2B51; (2) 1949 SKS s/n ЕУ41; (3) 1949 SKS s/n PO1657; (4) my 1949 SKS.

These 4 do not look like they have (or obvious signs of) the rivet, or outside part of the rivet has been modified to be flushing with the magazine surface.

(5) 1949 SKS s/n ЛМ1041 (possibly a 1950 refurb with a 1949 receiver cover); (6) 1950 SKS s/n ФВ2737; (7) 1951 SKS s/n РГ3741. These three have the rivet.

And the samples in my own collection and I have seen online with manufacture year in and after 1952 have the rivet.

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2017, 11:12:50 PM »
Regarding the page:  http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17575

It has lots of useful info.

Interestingly, if you take a close look at the spike bayonet 1949 sample(s) shown in Section 3.f. and Section 6, you'll see the stock looks wrong.

Some spike bayonet 1949's sold in Canada is a real myth.

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2017, 11:29:04 PM »
RM, please check pictures of (1) 1948 SKS s/n 2B51; (2) 1949 SKS s/n ЕУ41; (3) 1949 SKS s/n PO1657; (4) my 1949 SKS.

These 4 do not look like they have (or obvious signs of) the rivet, or outside part of the rivet has been modified to be flushing with the magazine surface.

(5) 1949 SKS s/n ЛМ1041 (possibly a 1950 refurb with a 1949 receiver cover); (6) 1950 SKS s/n ФВ2737; (7) 1951 SKS s/n РГ3741. These three have the rivet.

And the samples in my own collection and I have seen online with manufacture year in and after 1952 have the rivet.

(1) Ahh I totally forgot about the '48 prototype!  Looks unriveted to me:


(2) I have no record of ЕУ41. :(

(3) PO1657 is not yet in my database but I do have the photos waiting for categorizing.  It's also an electro pencilled mag so I hesitate to draw too many conclusions all by itself, but taken with the rest of the evidence I think you're likely right about it.  Photo is a bit dark and it's got a layer of paint on it.  I don't see any rivet, ground or otherwise:


Yours (4) is obviously the golden goose.  You being able the handle it, look at it, etc. I think proves that these aren't one off anomalies but it was an actual design feature change somewhere around 1949.  I think that MB28 example I posted above doesn't have the rivet either now that I can look at it on the big computer screen, metal looks totally pristine, not like a ground rivet head.

I think I'm convinced that (5) ЛМ1041 is a mid '50 with a '49 cover based on the long receiver cover takedown lever tab, restamped receiver cover, and the 45 gas block.


I don't have (6) ФВ2737 or 7) РГ3741 :(

I like the milsurps.com Russian SKS45 page quite a bit actually, it just hasn't kept up with the times and I find info on it outdated or in the worst instances, simply wrong.  There are lots of SKS-isms up in Canada that are iffy at best.  Up until a while ago, they took all receiver covers as gospel.  If it said '54 on it, by golly it *was* a 1954 SKS.  Most have come around it seems, but there are still many who just don't believe you regardless of the proof you offer.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 11:36:21 PM by running-man »
      

Online Justin Hell

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2017, 12:03:14 AM »
Regarding the page:  http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17575

It has lots of useful info.

Interestingly, if you take a close look at the spike bayonet 1949 sample(s) shown in Section 3.f. and Section 6, you'll see the stock looks wrong.

Some spike bayonet 1949's sold in Canada is a real myth.

If there is a pin in it...it isn't a 49 spiker stock.  The butts on a 49 stock also look more Mosin like (boat paddleish) from several photos I have seen...those may or may have not been from trial guns...or phased out early on. Some seem to be normal...but, often you cannot tell if they were refurb stocks or not, so I am not sure if all the spike stocks had funky butts. :)

I doubt I would have noticed this many little things unless I was crazy enough to strip paint off of nearly ever single part of both a 49 and a 50 to make a coheseive looking gun.  I am still really tempted to see if I have two scores for pins under my stock ferrule...but I think trying to get it off beyond the couple of whacks I gave it with a bubba stock and it not budging would be pushing my luck. Maybe if I locate an original small one to potentially replace it with. Otherwise it will remain a mystery until I have a good reason to mess with something that isn't broken.

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Offline pcke2000

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2017, 12:36:25 AM »
Regarding the page:  http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17575

It has lots of useful info.

Interestingly, if you take a close look at the spike bayonet 1949 sample(s) shown in Section 3.f. and Section 6, you'll see the stock looks wrong.

Some spike bayonet 1949's sold in Canada is a real myth.

If there is a pin in it...it isn't a 49 spiker stock.  The butts on a 49 stock also look more Mosin like (boat paddleish) from several photos I have seen...those may or may have not been from trial guns...or phased out early on. Some seem to be normal...but, often you cannot tell if they were refurb stocks or not, so I am not sure if all the spike stocks had funky butts. :)

I doubt I would have noticed this many little things unless I was crazy enough to strip paint off of nearly ever single part of both a 49 and a 50 to make a coheseive looking gun.  I am still really tempted to see if I have two scores for pins under my stock ferrule...but I think trying to get it off beyond the couple of whacks I gave it with a bubba stock and it not budging would be pushing my luck. Maybe if I locate an original small one to potentially replace it with. Otherwise it will remain a mystery until I have a good reason to mess with something that isn't broken.

Agree! I found this unique feature too. Plus original 1949 stock is significantly narrower at the front part (under the gas tube). 

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2017, 09:51:23 AM »
Quote
Some spike bayonet 1949's sold in Canada is a real myth.

I would never buy a 1949 spike unless it was at a department store/cabellas etc where it was the same price as all the others.
1949 blades are not hard to find, spike bayonets are not hard to find,  Suckers who will pay double once you combine the two are not hard to find either.
 >:(

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Re: 90 degrees of Bubba
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2017, 10:01:20 AM »
Quote
Some spike bayonet 1949's sold in Canada is a real myth.

I would never buy a 1949 spike unless it was at a department store/cabellas etc where it was the same price as all the others.
1949 blades are not hard to find, spike bayonets are not hard to find,  Suckers who will pay double once you combine the two are not hard to find either.
 >:(

In that case, I would like a blade AND a spike, and if you have a 49 cover holding a door open somewhere...I'm your huckleberry.  :)
All Bubbas deserve bayonets....figure out a way.
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